Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

General Discussions on anything! If you feel like chatting... hey post here!

Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby AS 2 Tom Little » 08 Jun 2023 21:48

Simon and anyone who is testing the new World Race Crew Pass series, feel free to post here to discuss issues, and ideas to change and improve the race series.

User avatar
AS 2 Tom Little
FAA [Administrator]
 
Posts: 3293
Joined: 23 Nov 2005 20:03
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 2] KMCO Orlando, Florida SKYPE:airsourceva
AirSource Pilot Number: 2

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby spotsey » 09 Jun 2023 03:41

Hi Tom,
Just to get the discussion going...I feel that restricting the airspeed kills any sense of being in a race. I have tried in a King Air 350, at 4500ft, flat out it is just under 250kts, You get a high pitched sound from the engines with the real sense you are racing.
I think we should change the "Any Aircraft" to something like the King Air. I have tried it in the Cessna 172SP but it is too slow and tame, no sense of racing.
Have a try switching between them on a flight and you will see what I mean.
My original thoughts were a selected aircraft and if the King Air 350 is cross-platform for the other Flight Sims I think it would be great.
I think we need to make the timing of turning on the flight on myAAS when you start your takeoff roll, and end when you stop your landing roll, It takes away all the hassle of trying to do it when you are in the middle of doing other things, which is a bit off-putting. We could then use the flight time recorded by AAs ,if it doesn't round up or down the final time, as the recorded race flight time.
I have just flown it in the King Air at 4500ft, no speed limit. It is so much better. you have to be more on your toes thru the mountains at speed.
I have flown both my more direct route and the one through the pass, the suggested route, and you can fly them both at 4000ft.
In the King Air at full speed, and being a bit lower adds to the thrill of the race.
Simon.
spotsey
Private Pilot
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 19:57
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 423]
AirSource Pilot Number: 423

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby sonjamichelle » 09 Jun 2023 13:07

The King Air is indeed in all three "main" sims. FSX, X-Plane and MSFS2020. With P3D being based on FSX I'm going to assume it is still in there. It has been a while since I've run P3D. I haven't really fired up XP12 so I can't answer there.

With that said, I do agree that creating the event with a selected aircraft like the King Air and taking off the airspeed restrictions would "even" the playing field a bit. As well, having the same aircraft in the sims discounts for MOST differences in folks' setups. My concern was someone flying one aircraft on a high end system cranking out 80FPS would potentially "beat" somone with an older system just maintaining 20FPS and stuggling to manage the sim, addons and other apps. Just my take on that.

I would also add a restriction that AP shouldn't be used. If you are cruising through a mountain pass you REALLY should be awake at the controls. I believe this would also disaude andy one from taking off, popping on the AP, then wandering off somewhere else or goofing off on facebook while the sim runs in the background.

And I agree that AAS should be clicked on right before you advance your throttles for the take-off roll. Having to grab the mouse and go click the start button/menu on AAS while doing your climb-out is asking for trouble. :mrgreen: Though clicking it right before you go full throttle AND the fact that the departure point is the same, the distance to the end of the runway will all be equal. And if you add in that each "ticket" would be flown with a specific aircraft again levels the field. And of course AAS should be turned off at the point you reach 0 on the runway, click stop, then move on to taxi off. this would take into account folks who land with "flare" versus a "plop and drop". And for the folks who think they are doing carrier quals landing at full throttle and burning out the brake pads before they run out of runway.

With the aircraft restriction I would create a few tickets with a couple of different aircraft. One series for say the King-Air, another for a C172 and maybe another for a Baron or Mooney. Get a consensus of what DEFAULT airfraft are avaialbe in the sims and what folks are apt to fly. Then of course you COULD create another ticket for one of the more popular payware add-ons.

I know that seems a lot of work to put on the shoulders of the Air Managers, but being a race you really don't want one person cruising along in a Cessna to be consistantly beat out by the one yutz that is flying the Darkstar (Mach10 jet from Top Gun 2 and is in MSFS2020). I know, that is what the airspeed restriction was for, but like Simon mentioned that sort of beats the purpose of it being a "race"

If you get two or more people flying the same bird, but one person is more adept at managing their engines, rpms, and all the other bits and bobs of flight might just come out on top becasue they efficiently flew the course and beat out the "speed demon" who had to cut throttles or had issues maintaining airspeed becasue they were over working their engines or props and just flew like a brick in the air. Again, just my take on it.

User avatar
sonjamichelle
Instrument Rated Pilot
 
Posts: 207
Joined: 15 Feb 2006 13:58
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 103] ASO103 OKC,OK,USA
AirSource Pilot Number: 103

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby spotsey » 09 Jun 2023 17:32

Good suggestions there, the only point I would pick up on, flying without AP. It is a great tool for maintaining a constant flight level, and without it there is a greater risk of going over the maximum flight level, and the max altitude has been set so that on some parts of the flight paths available, going a few hundred feet under will cause you to contact the ground, I think GPS and AP is a blunt tool for flying the fastest line through the race so if folk just set it on AP and left, their time would be well off the mark, and they might very well end up on a mountainside. Especially in the Alps when we get to fly there. I fly with AP but steer by adjusting the heading bug, which means I am there controlling my aircraft through the whole race.
Regards,
Simon.
spotsey
Private Pilot
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 19:57
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 423]
AirSource Pilot Number: 423

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby spotsey » 09 Jun 2023 18:15

When choosing race routes I have wanted to have more than one route available between the start and finish, I know there are at least two on the Trial Race, there may be more. The max altitude has been set by the profile of the more direct route, not the suggested route. If you fly the course now you should set the max to 4000ft. The suggested route still has a lot of air between you and the ground, but the other route gets the ground up and closer to you. For good races a lot of investigation has to take place to provide races with several routes to be discovered, all different in length, difficulty and risk. And the height profile of each will be mapped to set a maximum altitude that keeps us flying as close to the ground as possible but still make it through all the routes available for that race. Suggestions for race routes from you all will be welcomed.
spotsey
Private Pilot
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 19:57
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 423]
AirSource Pilot Number: 423

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby AS37 Norm Edwards » 10 Jun 2023 02:39

FIrstly, thanks Simon for the work you have put into this as well as Joe & Tom that are doing the "technical" side with AAS. I did a trial run, without using AAS, just to test the route I had in mind and used an Embraer Phenom 300E... woosh, not. Races are often about speed so I don't think there should be a speed restriction otherwise its not really a race in my view. I've been thinking back to the days of BOTA (Battle of the Airlines) in which a few of us here participated in and was fantastic because it was not just about speed but piloting skills, navigation etc. With the trial what I found, was a bit boring the period of time from departure up until reaching the mountain ranges. Once at the mountain range I navigated a very difficult route without AP and that was fun (fun is all important!) and I went fast, the little Phenom is easy to fly in small spaces :) For future tracks I'd recommend not having a long period of flying where the pilot does nothing but monitor the AP. But understand this might not always be easy depending on location of airports from/to. Coincidentally, lately i've been doing flights in Nepal flying into high altitude airports that are difficult to land on and there are plenty of other locations around the world that also fit that type of flying. In terms of aircraft type to use, i'm still thinking about whether it should be a no-choice type such as the King Air or free choice as the pilot wants to use. I'm going to try a few different ones just to test out a few things. In any case, lets keep talking about it to come up with the best format and thanks again for those putting time into this :)

User avatar
AS37 Norm Edwards
FAA [Administrator]
 
Posts: 1557
Joined: 26 Nov 2005 00:07
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 37] Muscat, Oman (OOMS)
AirSource Pilot Number: 37

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby spotsey » 10 Jun 2023 07:09

We could also include a military aircraft category in each race, anything out there with Terrain Following Radar that we could fly at 300ft??
Regards,
Simon.
spotsey
Private Pilot
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 19:57
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 423]
AirSource Pilot Number: 423

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby spotsey » 10 Jun 2023 07:17

Just found one!!
Tornado GR1 for FSX/P3D
The Tornado GR1 is a tandem (twin seat) multi-role combat aircraft. Its primary role is high speed, low-level ground attack, but it is also capable of long range, high altitude interception, and ground attack. It can carry out these roles in any weather using a wide range of weapons, external stores, and sensors, including a terrain following radar.
Sold by SIMSHACK.

Anyone tried it out?
spotsey
Private Pilot
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 19:57
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 423]
AirSource Pilot Number: 423

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby spotsey » 10 Jun 2023 13:47

FLY AWAY have the FSX SHRS General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark Aircraft Package
If you ever wanted to fly the F-111 skimming the tree tops at high speeds and whip around a mountain in a 60 degree bank while the autopilot does all the work, then this is the aircraft package for you. This update has the only True Terrain Following Radar system with pitch and roll stabilization...
Free to download.
spotsey
Private Pilot
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 19:57
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 423]
AirSource Pilot Number: 423

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby spotsey » 11 Jun 2023 08:00

Regarding the fixed altitude, when plotting course profiles there are always a few heights that push the fixed altitude way up for the rest of the flight, which doesn't make it very interesting, it also means we don't need to stick to the route we have chosen if there is a lot of lower ground we can take shortcuts over.
I think we should try flying at a variable altitude, aiming to keep between 500 to a 1000ft off the ground. The course we set ourselves is our race track, and that determines the distance we will have to fly, and being lower we will be more hemmed in by the valley sides, we will have to stay on the track. I think it will make for much more interesting and exciting racing, with no penalties if you stray a few hundred feet above.
We would have to agree we are all flying valley routes, and no straight line courses.
It would also make it so much easier to choose courses, just select a start and finish with the mountains in between, and it would increase the number we could choose from to thousands. At the moment I am struggling to find a handful.
Regards,
Simon.
spotsey
Private Pilot
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 19:57
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 423]
AirSource Pilot Number: 423

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby spotsey » 11 Jun 2023 09:17

To give you all an example you can fly, LIDB to LOWZ in the Alps. The profile of my route showed altitude peaks near the end of it about 9400ft, which made the race altitude setting 9500ft.
When I first flew the GPs route I had made, I didn't know the profile. I just flew it within 500 to 1000ft, and had to climb swiftly up valleys in places, to keep out of the ground, still flying low. It was great, there were turns into valleys that were narrow , high rock walled, that took you by surprise and kept you on your toes, it was exhilarating.
When I flew it at the 9500ft it was so bad. I never saw the tight valley turns, or the exhilarating climbs up valleys to keep out of the ground, all the excitement and fun had gone.
You try it and see, there are lots of routes to choose from between the two airports.
I wonder whether Norm will be able to keep his Jet off the rocks??
spotsey
Private Pilot
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 19:57
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 423]
AirSource Pilot Number: 423

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby spotsey » 11 Jun 2023 11:44

I have just been flying it in my Maule, it has a retro-fitted Radio Altimeter in one of the spare Gauge positions on the main panel. Not using autopilot, I don't think you can. And you can't go like a rocket either, turns are too tight, valleys can be quite narrow. Up to 1000ft is well enough altitude. Went off my plotted course and that is no issue, go where you want, the problem for me was I missed the lower ground turning (easy to do) and my Maule couldn't cope with the sharp increase in ground height and ran out of speed in the climb to stay away from it and get round and back on the lower valley track! Good challenging fun. I think more power would be handy to have in your pocket.
Simon.
spotsey
Private Pilot
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 19:57
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 423]
AirSource Pilot Number: 423

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby spotsey » 11 Jun 2023 11:51

There may be wisdom in increasing the max altitude to 2000ft. I will make it a bit more forgiving to fly, without taking away the challenge or excitement.
What do you guys think?
spotsey
Private Pilot
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 19:57
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 423]
AirSource Pilot Number: 423

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby spotsey » 11 Jun 2023 14:47

Yup, we need a max of three I think as early on you may need a bit more than the two, but if it looks like on the whole you will be flying between one and two thousand feet above ground. Its challenging to be sure, but no problem doing it. You may need to get familiar with how the ground looks at 3000ft so you can stay below that, if you don't have a Radio Altimeter. No autopilot, just flying with a mouse controller and the throttle.
Please have a go and let us all know how you did. Thanks.
Simon.
spotsey
Private Pilot
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 19:57
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 423]
AirSource Pilot Number: 423

Re: Discussion and feedback /World Air Races Testing

Postby AS37 Norm Edwards » 11 Jun 2023 17:46

spotsey wrote:We could also include a military aircraft category in each race, anything out there with Terrain Following Radar that we could fly at 300ft??
Regards,
Simon.

So that you are aware, we do not as a matter of course set up any military fighter jets for flights within AS. The only military aircraft we do set up is for humanitarian flights with military cargo aircraft types.

User avatar
AS37 Norm Edwards
FAA [Administrator]
 
Posts: 1557
Joined: 26 Nov 2005 00:07
Location: [AirSource ID: AS 37] Muscat, Oman (OOMS)
AirSource Pilot Number: 37

Next

Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron